POP22 - Responses
If you have some suggestions or comments you would like to pass
on to me about these pages you may do so at:
DawnSayer@webpal.org
A slight detour.
I have decided to share with all of you
four responses that I have received
and my answer to two of them.
I have selected these as being typical of quite a number.
I also very much appreciate the affirmative responses I have received.
They mean a lot to me.
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From D.
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It has been interesting to know your views over the past 2 years. As you
expected, many will leave your list after your last mailing. I choose to
be one.
I feel that you have been deceived with one of many false messiahs that
the Bible prophesied would be appearing during these last days. I hope
and pray that your eyes will be opened to the fact that JESUS will
appear again just as he said and will take his church to be with him. I
believe it will be very soon. Trust in Him only for the forgiveness of
your sins and then I can look to meeting you in heaven.
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From K.
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To save me from deciphering anymore of you paradigms
let me cut straight to the point....do you believe
that Jesus was/is the Son of God...and am I to
understand that you believe Jesus returned in 1844 and
is now dead and buried at Mt. Carmel.
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My Answer to K.
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The questions that you ask K,
are impossible to answer to you meaningfully.
That is the point of a paradigm.
It is a view of the world.
Someone who lived in a very hot country
and who had never heard of or seen ice
would find miraculous
the story of someone walking across a river.
The explanation that it had frozen
would be incomprehensible to them.
Likewise would be the explanation
to someone who had never seen or heard of a microscope
that the small little bugs that were harming them
were not really invisible
or some type of evil spirits.
Your statements
that you want to understand the answers
but not understand the paradigm
would mean that the answers would seem
impossible
ridiculous
illogical
or otherwise out of touch with reality.
Whereas, as in the above examples,
a new paradigm gives one a higher sense of reality
and permits them to understand things
that they have not understood before.
A new and higher paradigm
explains all that was believed before
and explains WHY it was believed in that way before.
As regards Christ Jesus,
the problem with the Christian view
is that Christians have too small a view of Him.
You may think this a strange statement
when you think that you put Him at the center of everything,
Preceding everything, the Purpose of everything.
But the statement remains true - too small a view.
But you cannot know what I mean -
without a paradigm shift.
Paradigm shifts are as necessary in Religion as they are in Science.
In Science, the Einstein Theory of Relativity was a Paradigm Shift.
The very idea that two parallel lines could meet,
or that a clock traveling in space at a high rate of speed
would reflect that Time had slowed down,
or that light could bend when passing a large gravitational lens or sink,
such as our sun,
or a variety of other such phenomena (he had five proofs)
was a paradigm shift that many still do not understand.
It has not penetrated the consciousness of the man on the street.
Still, for those scientists who have grasped it,
it has permitted the development of atomic and nuclear energy,
new methods of constructing materials used in electronics and computers,
calculations for space travel and explanations for phenomena of astronomy,
and other control over our physical world
that did not exist before.
The Einsteinian Paradigm did not destroy the Newtonian Paradigm.
It merely provided a HIGHER explanation and showed the latter
to be a SPECIAL case.
Many of my readers believe that Science deals with relative knowledge
but that religion deals with absolute knowledge.
However, they are wrong.
God's REALITY is ONE.
Science and Religion are the TWO wings of the One Bird,
seeking to explain the ONE REALITY.
That Reality is Absolute,
but because God is Infinite
our understanding is always relative and can always become greater
through REPEATED Paradigm shifts,
so one may as well get used to it
or they will stop growing through eternity.
Do you know what the one unforgivable sin is?
It is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
This does not mean taking the Name of the Holy Spirit in vain
like we hear many people use the word God or Jesus,
but they don't use Holy Spirit in that way
(although some Batman followers would try in saying -
Holy Smoke).
No, this means failure to listen to the Holy Spirit.
That is to say
failure to listen to the small calm voice of Truth.
But rather to remain dogmatic and argumentative.
With that attitude then one cannot ever understand the Truth.
Although one may be in error
so long as they are willing to examine with an open spirit
something new that is presented to them
then they can eventually learn to better know the Truth,
but if they close their mind
and won't listen and examine
then they will never find the Truth
and that is why Jesus said blasphemy against the Holy Spirit
is the one unforgivable sin.
It is time for you to examine
and to try to comprehend.
When you understand the paradigm
well enough that you can explain it to someone else
then you can say that you understand it.
Until then you are criticizing that which you do not understand
and you have no basis for comparison.
I have looked in both the boxes.
I know that what is in both of them is very good.
But having seen in BOTH of them I can make a comparison.
You need to be able to do the same.
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These communications from P
who was apparently forwarded the Four Paths
but I am not certain that they were read.
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The First Path
There is Only ONE PATH and that is Jesus Christ, and his One holy and
apostolic Church. Outside the Church there is no salvation. Today the Church
is hard to find so one may say the only ark available is Mary His Mother who
does know the way to His Church. P.
The Second Path
All of this is outside the teaching of the one holy and apostolic Church.
Outside the Church there is no salvation. The easiest way to the Church today
is through Mary and the Rosary. None else is needed. P.
The Third Path
Reason is subject to Grace. Grace of God not reason is the greatest gift God
has given to men. Without grace, reason is what made Eve and thence Adam
take of the forbidden KNOWLEDGE tree. P.
The Fourth Path
All of this ... comes from the tree of knowledge that was forbidden to
Adam and Eve. It begets PRIDE THE ULTIMATE SIN.
Reason must be subject to Grace, or faith in Jesus Christ and His
Church.. NOTHING ELSE IS NEEDED FOR SALVATION. OTHER THAN TO REMAIN A LOYAL
AND FAITHFUL SUBJECT OF JESUS AND HIS CHURCH.
The most foolish or unintelligent man, the most unreasoning and humble
being, the man of simple faith, THE CHILD is the most assured of heaven.
P.
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My Answer to P.
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Dear P.
Your responses show that you believe that
there is really only ONE PATH to Truth,
that which has been identified in these four essays
as The Fourth Path
which you would call the Path of Grace,
or others might call the Path of the Holy Spirit,
or they might call it by some of the other many names
besides those that were listed in the essay.
Still, the fact abides,
that you have gotten most of your knowledge,
and that upon which you base your beliefs
comes from AUTHORITY
in this case much from the Bible
and what you call the
One holy and apostolic Church.
Your type of thinking is what I refer to as Fundamentalist thinking.
It is often reflected in what I have, in discussion with others,
identified as "black and white" thinking.
Very often it is referred to as Dogmatic Thinking.
Dogma simply means the Teaching of some Authority.
In your case what you call the One holy and apostolic Church.
This type of thinking is not, however, restricted to any one sect,
or even any one religion
(it could equally well be Christian, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist or other)
and most definitely does not need to even be restricted to religious belief,
as demonstrated in my following response to the following correspondent.
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The following correspondence is from F.
Who has only heard about our discussions
and has never received copies of the Four Paths.
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Why am I not at all surprised that another proponent of prophecy
"fulfillment" refuses to defend his positions in an open public forum? You
are all alike. You preach to the choir and hide from having your absurd
claims answered by an informed opposition.
I have a point to contribute that you may want to consider now. Neither you
nor anyone else can prove a single, verifiable case of prophecy fulfillment.
If you ever find the courage to put your faith where your mouth is, please
contact me. I have an internet forum where the debate can be published.
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My answer to F.
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Can you not see that you are bitter and angry,
and not open to calm and reasonable discussion.
When you make prejudiced and judgmental decisions like -
"You are all alike."
When you have never even examined this paradigm,
and have no idea what it is like.
Or that I am even alike in that I
because the audience that is being addressed
has absolutely no knowledge of the paradigm either.
Most of them will be resolutely opposed also
because it does not come from a Fundamentalist background
or other paradigm with which they are familiar.
"and hide from having your absurd claims"
You have absolutely no knowledge of the claims of this paradigm
because you know nothing about the paradigm itself
and therefore you have no way of knowing whether there are absurdities or not.
"answered by an informed opposition."
How could you possibly be informed -
when you know nothing about the paradigm?
And why are you in opposition to something that you know nothing about?
That is an entirely biased, bigoted, and closed minded attitude.
If another synonym came to my mind I would use it.
"Neither you nor anyone else"
It is against this type of close mindedness that I am presenting the paradigm -
the very idea that one can judge the unknowable -
because neither I nor anyone else can know in advance -
the capabilities of everyone, or anyone else.
I realize that in that statement that I also have invoked
the "paradox of the absolute skeptic".
In our previous correspondence,
I explained the limitations of proof,
and the distinctions between "belief" and "knowledge"
based upon evidence.
Did you miss the point?
If you didn't miss the point,
then your now stating this,
is evidence that you are not open to calm rational inquiry.
If you did miss the point,
then that demonstrates that you are not capable of such inquiry.
In either case, then,
what would be the benefit of trying to pursue such inquiry with you?
"verifiable case of prophecy fulfillment"
Once again, I have previously pointed out to you
the nature of evidence and verification.
It is a matter that was examined at some depth in the Four Paths to Truth.
Since you have not availed yourself of that presentation
you do not even know what criteria has been established there
in this POP series which I call the "Power or Problems of Prophecy".
The first P stands for Power or Problem -
one is free to make their own choice between the two.
I have an internet forum where the debate can be published.
Debate is useless,
when it is conducted with people who are NOT informed
and who are NOT of good will.
The good will that is necessary is that one must be willing
and desiring
of seeking the Truth
in an unbiased way.
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I plan to go on to the 3 spheres of reality -
tomorrow.
Peace and love,
Bruce Beach
DawnSayer@webpal.org